Before I left to attend this meditation retreat, I mentioned that I had read many accounts of others who had also attended Goenka-sponsered Vipassana courses. Most of the reports were positive, some not so much. At the time I was really looking forward to being locked up for ten days with myself, and I pretty much rolled my eyes at the small percentage of accounts I read where people had come back traumatised or convinced they’d been unwittingly sucked into a cult. People on the internet are dramatic and crazy sometimes, you know? I never for a second predicted that I would jump on the “it might be a cult” bandwagon. After all, I’ve been practicing Vipassana for a year and expected that this retreat would be more of the same that I had already been doing, albeit on a more intense scale.
That was not what happened at all. This retreat was like no other meditation I had ever done. I think it’s possible (though I wouldn’t like to declare firmly either way) that perhaps Goenka is using legitimate Vipassana practice as a veil to conceal something entirely different that goes on at some of his retreats. So I decided to leave my retreat early, for my own emotional well-being, and I took a few days afterward to collect my thoughts and write them down. The result is the document below, which I’ve compiled into a handy PDF so you can download it and read it when you get a chance, or skip it if you’re not interested.
I would like to stress that I don’t believe my experience is at all a universal one, and if you are booked in or are planning on attending a Goenka retreat, I urge you not to cancel. Go, do the retreat and write up your own report when you get back. It will likely be wildly different from mine because no two experiences in this world can possibly be the same. You should never base your own spiritual path on anyone else’s, because we are all different and all perceive things differently. As my grandmother used to say, don’t let anyone else drive your bus. The majority of people who attend Goenka retreats come out refreshed and renewed. You’ll never know until you try.
So anyway, if you’ve got some time to kill, download the PDF and have a read. It’s a longish essay (22 pages), but with any luck you’ll find it entertaining (i.e. there are photos— I know where your buttons are). The layout is rough, even by my amateur standards, but hopefully the content doesn’t suffer as a result. Think of it as my personal “I nearly got sucked into a cult” scrapbook. Construction paper, glitter pens, and glue. One to show the grandkids.
I’m glad I got a chance to write this up now, because it served a double purpose: as a kind of closure for me, and as practice for the extreme amounts of writing I’ll be doing next month as part of NaNoWriMo (NaNoers: friend me and we’ll suffer together!). People have suggested that I use this essay itself as part of my novel, but alas, NaNoWriMo novels have to be fiction.
Please feel free to ask any questions or make comments; I think the goal of these things should always be to expand one’s knowledge and insight, and discussion is of course a big part of that.
The document itself is safe for work, though there are occasional swear words and a couple of analogies that you might not want your kids reading. But it’s not any worse than anything they’ll hear on prime-time TV tonight, and they might learn something.
I hope someone gets something out of my having written this, and I hope it doesn’t turn people off from Vipassana or meditation in general, both of which are legitimate, ancient practices with significant benefits to those who follow them. I still sit daily, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. But as with any spiritual path, sometimes things branch off and some followers wander from the main road. That’s probably not a bad thing.
[871kb, control-click (right-click on a PC if anyone still uses those) and choose the appropriate "download" or "save" option— you guys are smart, you know how your browser works]
Edit, May 2009: I’m closing comments on this post, just because it’s been almost two years, and I think things are getting a little repetitive within the thread and it’s time to move on. I fully appreciate all the comments from all sides of this issue, and I thank everyone who has contributed to the thread, even if I feel you misunderstood what I was saying (which may have been my fault due to the disjointed state of mind I was in when I wrote the pdf file – it’s probably the most poorly-constructed piece I’ve ever created) or let knee-jerk anger cloud your understanding. I do know what it’s like to believe fully in a particular method of something, and then be thoroughly annoyed when someone says that method didn’t work out for them. However, just because that sort of reaction is natural doesn’t mean it’s rational or based on anything but an emotional response. Incidentally, in case anyone is wondering, I do still practice Vipassana daily, and despite what some have implied here, I don’t find practicing without Goenka to be easy or “sissy” at all, and I find it somewhat alarming that some of Goenka’s followers think it’s acceptable to insult or label those who have decided not to follow Goenka as substandard practitioners. I’m pretty sure meditation is not supposed to be competitive, and indeed Goenka’s own claims that those who leave his courses do so “because they are weak” is one of the things that turned me off about him, as I don’t really respond well to attempts at psychological bullying. Practicing on my own is, in fact, a constant challenge. I also don’t think that a practice necessarily has more value just because it’s more “hardcore” or “boot-camp.” I think part of the point of meditation is that it is a very personal practice, and there are many paths to the same place. I’m happily discovering my path; I wish all of you the best in discovering yours, whether it be through Goenka’s teachings or otherwise.





















Melissa,
I wouldn’t expect you to get sucked into anything, you are way to strong for that. Such purviews are for the weak of mind. I look forward to reading your report. Glad to see you back up. I missed you!!!
i have signed up for NANOWRIMO too and friended you…i’ll see what I can do with the DRAMATICA
Wow. What an incredible adventure and story. I’m very surprised that only a few days of hunger and sleep deprivation could have such a dramatic effect. And what a frightening concept…being so “trapped” despite the fact that the exits weren’t locked and there was no-one preventing the escape of the “inmates”! I’m so glad you made it out of there, intact.
@Dan thanks, glad to be back. I missed everyone!
@Martin: you sure you added me? I don’t see you on my buddy list… the nnwm link in the post leads to my profile.
@Yvette: I don’t think it was that the hunger and sleep deprivation had such a dramatic effect *themselves*, but rather that they weaken the system in order to let other things in, suggestions, for example, that *could* have a dramatic effect.
Yeah, it’s funny how we’re socially conditioned to respect borders and limits. They put up a sign that says “course boundary – do not proceed,” and it’s enough to keep people in. For a while, anyway.
I read the whole story. I think it is amazing. Great to read something like that when you feel you know the author. Even if it is just from twitter and the blog. Thanks for sharing the story and your thoughts. Being a psychologist I find stuff like that very interesting. And I admire your ability to keep your thoughts clear
Daggers of fire… that’s pretty cool. Well except for the burn-holes in your shirts of course.
But still.
@Radioactive: this is why I’ve had to invest in some short tops. Part of the job, I’m afraid.
Melissa: Thanks so much for sharing that. I’ve done some informal study on mind-control and brain-washing, and sooooo much of what you write about falls right into line there. The only thing that I think is missing is trying to make you emotionally dependent on your providers, just as you were dependent for food, water, and human contact, but maybe that was Day 5 and you missed it.
Does “kamilkoc” with the accented C mean “camel coach?” It’s a wild guess, but that’s certainly what it looks like. I had some Turkish friends who told me how to read that accented C.
[...] story came from a key (pictured above) that I found on the floor of the room I stayed in at the Vipassana Retreat That Went Horribly Wrong. I thought it was a cool-looking key, so I stuck it in my bag, and then promptly forgot about it. I [...]
@scrivener no no, it’s coincidence – the Turkish word for camel is “deve.” “Kamil” is a man’s name, so I’m assuming that’s the company’s owner (or at least founder).
There were some worrying things:
* the suspicious brown pill? What was it, and what was it doing next to your food?
*Turning off your shower!? And the whole mind game about not hearing the bell, cutting the break short, etc.
*What lay behind the stack of matresses on the 4th floor?
*The continued confusion: did you have that before you went? Has it persisted?
*The overall state of nutrition/cleanliness
*That you were told you can not choose other teachers. I disagree that being told you can only have one teacher is a good thing, or that having only one is a good thing. This is not something the Buddha would have ever said. No legitimate teacher of vipassana would ever need to say that. Also, suspicious is that it is taught via tapes and cds, as if to insist that there can be only one teacher (everyone else is just an assistant).
Other things seem something like a Zen monestary experience: the unfilling meals (Zen is miso soup, rice and pickles), the lack of sleep…the point of which are to drive you to your breaking point …but that’s Zen. Vipassana is much more civilized.
Hello Melissa,
I have done two vipassana courses thought by Goenka and I have big doubts and thoughts against Goenkas brainwashing system. I have tryed repeted times to download your retreat.pdf with no success. I would be strongly gratefull if you could send it to my email. I will write an essay of my own with all the inconsistenses I have found in his teachings and practices. I’m very interested in reading your essay.
Thank you in advanced.
lets expose this bastard, athiest prick goenka, and let people know how he is trying to deviate us from the path of truth and reality.
@adnan: wow, I was wondering when I was going to get a nutcase commenter – I was starting to worry! I’m going to leave your comment here to mark the occasion.
Hi Melissa,
I just read your retreat.pdf and found it very informative and helpful as I’ve been thinking about attending a 10 day S.N.Goenka course myself and, like you, am scouring the web for first-hand account. Thanks for posting yours! I must compliment you on your writing style, you had me laughing out-loud several times, despite the seriousness of your situation.
I did have one question though: I assume that the Goenka recordings and videos you heard on the retreat were in English, is this correct? Did they have some kind of Turkish translation for the Turkish people present? I’m wondering because I too am an American expat, but I’m living in Germany and if I do go on a retreat it would probably be in Germany. If any kind of suggestion and/or hypnotism is going on, I suppose it would have to be done in the native language to have any effect (although I’m not an expert, and really wouldn’t know). I wonder if the organizers would object if I wore earplugs? Will I miss out on the “message”? If so, what about the non-English speakers present? Don’t they miss out on the “message” as well?
In anycase, if I do end up trying this form of Vipassana, I will definitely take your lead by thoroughly documenting and posting my experiences.
@Tim: Yes, everything was conducted in English, and they did not have any translations. People were told on the sign-up page on the web site not to bother signing up if they weren’t fluent in English (and the web site is all in English, so I doubt non-English speakers would have worked out how to sign up anyway). Before they locked us away they went around and spoke with everyone in English for a few minutes just to make sure. So we didn’t have any non-English speakers.
I’m fairly sure you would not be allowed earplugs, because of course they want to instruct you how to meditate their way (these are all guided meditations), and if you can’t hear the instructions there’s no point in being there.
Please do let me know when and if you go – I’m always curious to read what other people have to say on the subject.
Hi,
Funny story. I think they made a mistake in the Turkish retreat by providing inadequate food. Nutrisious food and adequate portions are important for meditators, and whenever I’ve been on retreat I eat A LOT on the 11.00AM meal to last me till the next day. Ive been on some retreats including one Goenka’s in India and the food was excellent on all of them. A vipassana retreat in Burma even had a board outside the canteen listing the importance of quality food for meditative progress. Even saying that you should eat what you fancy, so if you like sweets, eat sweets.
I would just like to say that Vipassana doesn’t start until the middle of the fourth day, so if you left early, all you had practiced was mindfulness of breathing, anapana. The vipassana as taught by Goenka is a body scanning method, as opposed to for example Mahasi style vipassana, which is using moving of the abdomen as the primary object.
I think you were unlucky similarly in the respect like going to a bad concert, the band is the same but they just had an off day.
@someone: agreed on all counts. I’ve always heard that the food was supposed to be one of the highlights.
Yeah, I was aware of the anapana/vipassana distinction… but I think something suggestive may be going on before day 4.
Hi,
I did a Goenka Vipassana course in Germana 2 months ago and I can definitely not confirm anything fishy going on (I must admit, I read the pdf very fast, omitting all the parts not dealing with the retreat). The food was great and sufficient, everything about gongs, showers, duration of rest etc. was OK – I am sure ot that, because I had kept my watch – I think, you are allowed to do so. On the other hand, I really observed the rules (not writing, reading, whatever) and did so because I wanted to. Furthermore for me 6 and a half hours of sleep are not sleep deprivation. I was tired in the beginning but less and less so towards the end of the course.
I also did not know, absolutely everything was done with CDs and it really bothered me, so much in fact, that I seriously considered leaving the course (I most certainly do not believe there was any hypnosis or so – I just didn’t like hearing everything from the CDs, the teachers doing more or less nothing etc). I have several friends (different in character, who do not know one another) who went to Goenka courses, as far apart as the early 90’s and in 2000, in New Zealand, Germany and Asia, and I for my part was sure, that the courses are OK. On the other hand, I did not like the methods at all and I wondered, whether to support a system, that uses methods reminding me of a re-education camp, even if I am convinced, that the aim is OK (I wondered whether “the end justifies the means”). So the first 2 days I was actually torn and didn’t do much meditating. I had another phase like that on day 5/6, when vipassana was introduced and I could not agree to the way they introduced addhitthana (sittings of strong determination). But at this point I knew I couldn’t just go away after 5 days of being away from other people, so I had a longish talk with the teacher and after that I could resume the course in peace. I do not think there is any point in fighting the system, in breaking the rules – after all I go there deliberately and I am told the rules on their web site – they ask you to “surrender” for 10 days to learn the method, and I think that’s what one should actually do.
Anyway as a result I felt, I had omitted an opportunity for myself because I had the time I did actual meditation cut short; so tomorrow I leave for another Goenka – course, where I hope to be able to do the 10 full days of meditation without interrupting myself and I am looking forward to it.
@GermanWoman: well, good luck with it, I hope it goes well for you!
I also did nanowrimo and i hope you had a good time !
Just want to put in my two cents about Goenka retreats. I’ve done two of them here in California and for me they are a mixed bag I appreciate the no-frills rigor, the rules, the silence, the intense focus on meditation, the not eating after noon, the low cost.
Ii don’t appreciate the technological approach of cds and videos and teachers whose job description seems to be about minimal engagement as actual teachers, but that’s what they offer and they offer it freely which I appreciate, though I can understand and have considered the culty edge of that set-up, having partaken of free meals and free teachings at culty places during my years of hippe wandering.
I tend to do more retreats at Spirit Rock, where I appreicate the space and the teachers much more, but i have to say that i wish the food wasn’t so rich and plentiful and tempting and the meditation times never longer than 45 minutes.
Ideally I’d like Spirit Rock teachers with Goenka rigor. Someone at Spirit Rock called Spirit Rock the nurturing mother and Goenka the authoritarian father. Some people call Goenka retreats vipassana boot camp.
I can appreciate the intense discipline but I can certainly understand why it could weird someone out. I remember the last retreat I went to there, I mistakenly put my cushion down on the men’s side and one of the servers absolutely freaked.Iinteracting with people on the level of showers etc. as you mentioned in your pdf would bother me, but I don’t engage in any kind of going outside the rules when I am there, so no one bothers me. I can understand how that could feel like being buried alive or locked in a suitcase or some other intensely claustrophobic experience once you got engaged with that aspect of it. In conclusion, bless them for offering a space for rigorious no cost meditation, and darn that mothers and fathers don’t seem to live together.
hi melissa,
better late than never, just read the above. I was there with you on the retreat and I think you were very sensible to leave when you did. It got very cold and wet.
my experiences were having a noisy room over the water pump, close to the poor whining and yelping dog that wanted to be with humans, not tied up outside. No hot water and a very cold bed.
personally I was pissed off that the men had comfortable chairs on their corridor, an indoor eating space, and a separate exercise area. Also that there was no provision for meditation in nature and the sea was blocked from view.
The assistants were way too chatty, creating distractions and clearly enjoying the hierarchical structure as a means to persecute the meditators.
I wasnt getting sleep because of the conditions and felt very vulnerable, also I have no desire to prove that I can wear a hair shirt. The work that is required of practitioners is very deep and needs to be nurtured and supported by taking care of peoples basic needs. ie food, hot water and warm beds.
I left early too, with some difficulty and conflict with the teacher, got home fluctuating between righteous indignation/feeling like a whimp, neither of which I felt was appropriate.
I found a vipassana teacher in USA to talk to who described my experiences as swan-diving into a blender. There were many lessons to be learned from the experience, not least never to try to do it in Turkey again.
Melissa,
I have been doing this form of Vipassana for seven years now and just came back from a course a week ago. I am surprised that the food was not enough, or that your stay was not comfortable. I have done most of my courses in India and the recent one in a non-centre course in Singapore, and have always found the food and room very comfortable.
For the course itself, there is no hypnosis involved. However, doubts are common, about the technique, the teacher, the teaching, one’s own abilities, etc. These usually fade by the tenth day, when one has a grasp over the entirety of the method.
I was completely unseasoned in meditation when I went for my first course, and there were days when I felt extremely agitated. I too tried to get out of there on the fifth day. The assistant teacher kept me from leaving and I thanked him for it on the tenth day. The point of this meditation is not to have pleasant feelings or relaxation. It is go deep into oneself and deal with the innate tendency of our minds to create misery for ourselves. It requires some amount of will, determination and the ability to deal with a certain level of unpleasantness that wells up from within. The efficacy of this technique becomes evident as you move past the 6th or 7th day.
I will not attempt to sell you on this technique. All I can say is, if you decide ever to give it another try, give it a real one. Suspend your doubts and your analysis, go with the idea of sticking it out no matter what, and observe Sila (hand in everything that will distract you from the meditation, including everything that you can write with) and noble silence. These are essential for the mind to quiet down and allow one to practice seriously. Dont go to analyse the course and investigate it for ‘cult’ practices, go to give it a fair chance to work for you.
Try to take it in India, or some of the more established international course centres. They should be able to provide you a more comfortable stay than the one you recounted here.
With Metta,
Suraj
Dear Melissa,
I just came back from a ten-day. I do Vipassana Meditation ( Goenka ) since 9 years! I sat many courses including 20 and 30 day courses. I never ever had such a bad course and I feel very sorry for you.
Vipassana changed my life for a better life. I met Goenka many years ago and he is a very beautiful person with lots of love!
I hope you are fine. May you be happy
dhammagarden
@dhammagarden I too, still practice Vipassana, and it has changed my life for the better… I’m just not sure about the Goenka retreats (or at least the one I went to).
Thank you for your kind comment.
I just came back from a 10-day Vipassana course held in Oregon and although I survived 10 days, I couldn’t stand one more day so I left. Here are my thoughts:
- The course is actually 12 days (11-nights) and not 10 days as they claim. THERE IS NO DINNER!!
- When I realized that the technique meant exclusive focus on the skin sensations, I was sure that Buddha could not have said so. But since they keep you out of touch with the world, there was no way for me to confirm that. I read the Satipatthana sutra after coming back
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html and indeed Buddha has asked to focus on ‘what is’ because as K says, any exclusivity means keeping the observer in the play whereas the whole point is to dissolve it!
- The course was run quite mechanically and the teachers were quite non-knowledgeable about even simple questions such as “Where is all this leading to – after I dissolve the whole body then what? How do I dissolve the ‘I’?” They sat on higher platform than the students and were running the show under the maintaining a condescending attitude towards students who were made to sit below their feet level while asking questions
- The singing is really awful and coarse, very hard to stand. If the organization has so much money, why not hire some professional singers and make the whole thing sound worthwhile? My theory is that Goenka actually wanted to be a singer but no-body would listen to him so he came up with this Vipassana thing so that his singing ‘talent’ can be demonstrated infront of unwitting people
- The teaching itself starts becoming more and more authoritative as the days go by and combined with the low intake of food and lost connection of the world, it almost makes one submissive to the whole thing
We had 8 boys and 18 girls as new students and by the end of the course only 2 boys remained although 17 girls continued – demonstrating much more patience than men. I left on the 10th day after I realized there is going to be nothing more than repetition of the same thing and there was no way I could stand more ‘chanting’. The teachers tried to use belitting tactics to prevent that from happening- saying they won’t let me use their retreat centers for 3 day courses etc but who wants to do that anyway?
I had done a fair amount of research on the internet before going there but unfortunately I had not come across http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/vipassana-critique.html#tthFtNtABF which very systematically describes the whole thing. This article helped me understand many fine points which caused me frustration while I was there but could not point my finger to them.
If I would have read it, I would have probably not gone to the course because exclusive awareness can certainly lead nowhere.
In summary, I found the experience nice in terms of being able to spend nine quiet days with myself and practising my own meditation of complete awareness instead of exclusive awareness on the skin, and just being with nature (because we were made to camp in tents on a lawn).
I think that although Goenka’s technique, which is a distorted version of what the Buddha actually said, might help some people calm their mind to some extent, it will certainly fail in leading even one person to enlightenment. And Goenka certainly is unelightened (or was so in the 1991 tapes that were played), so he has not right to teach or even claim command over a technique he himself does not understand. It almost seems like he got rid of it ego partly when he was with his teacher, but then it entered through the back door and is now spreading ignorance throughout the world.
I would strongly suggest avoiding this torture and imprisonment for 10 days and try your luck elsewhere
All your words, All your conceptions are purely Illusions
You, Your self, is pure Illusions
all your concepts, perceptions and deductions are pure illusions
You dont exist…
@Empyran: Dude, pass that over here so I can smoke some, too.
“Hard it is to train the mind, which goes where it likes and does what it wants. But a trained mind brings health and happiness. The wise can direct their thoughts, subtle and elusive, wherever they choose: a trained mind brings health and happiness.” – the Buddha
Meditation is hard in the beginning but for every step one takes on the path there are benefits. Serving was the most fulfilling experience of my life.
Read about my Vipassana meditation experiences (of S.N. Goenka’s tradition) on my blog: walkthepath.wordpress.com
Some of you are talking like spoiled little children. Yes, I can agree that a Goenka retreat is a bit like a Vipassana boot camp. It was very hard for me. Nevertheless perhaps I had a better expectation of the course, in that I really didn’t expect it to be easy! Why should it? When I say you are spoiled, I mean that you don’t know what pain is. I have suffered generic mild anxiety and sometimes peaks of anxiety for so many years, when I went into a 10 day Vipassana retreay I was DESPERATE for a cure. There are so many things about the course that you can NOT understand even when it is over. It requires some trust either in yourself or your perception of Goenka. An example: I am pretty sure that the reduced sleeping times is to prevent meditators for entering too many dreams. I had two very vivid nightmares nonetheless. Dreams are times when you react WITHOUT that bloody equanimity that you learn at the course. Hence if you slept more you would be undoing the meditation work, reacting without awareness in your dreams (unless you were already very advanced in the art of lucid dreaming…). I could go on and on. These were among the best days I’ve spent in my life. Great rewards come with great challenges! I have continued to meditate 1h moring and evening for 5 months after that to a point where my anxiety started disappearing of my life. If you are worried I would recommend to get feedback on the particular centre. Certainly some are better than others. I would also certainly recommend to try it before or after the summer, as doing this in the cold of winter will of course make the whole experience more challenging.
Sounds you like got a bum deal with the food. Lunch is one of the things that helps me through the whole process. I don’t think where you went represents the norm in that regard. Also, turning off your electricity was not helpful of them.
. It’s only in the last few months I’ve begun to use the technique every day. That’s a big help.
I’ve sat 2 courses, served 1 (I think the 2nd course I sat was even more trying that the first
The instructions are laid out in that manner, IMHO, because it is most conducive to self reliance as you progress further along. But perhaps the method of introduction is too much too soon for some tastes?
I was listeing to Shinzen Young’s take on Vispassana at his website. On one of the downloads he mentions Goenka and he suggests the reason his intonations are like that on the audio tape is because he is in bliss or samadhi when he is speaking… or something to that effect, so his words drawl out.
Whenever I hear the word cult used in association with these retreats it makes me wince a bit (not enough equanimity on my part yet:) Once you’ve done a retreat, you have all the info you need to proceed solo. You don’t ever have to go back again, unless you wish to because the atmosphere is conducive.
I just completed a 10-day course last week. Initially the chanting got on my nerves but I grew to enjoy it.
As for the course being entirely on CD and DVD, I thought that would be a problem for me, however, I actually ended up liking it. In my other retreats (and life) I often found myself behaving in ways to try and stand out from the crowd by becoming either the teacher’s pet or a vocal adversary. I couldn’t play that game with CD’s and DVD’s. The CD’s became a neutral reflection that I could use to observe my reaction. Having a neutral daily routine to act as a backdrop, I could clearly see how my mind works to turn my life into a soap opera where I am the lead.
I really enjoyed the course and felt that the food we had was probably too good. It gave me too much to look forward to while sitting. For me the retreat didn’t really even start until I finally gave up trying to be somewhere else than on the cushion observing my boring body.
I agree with the comment that by day 10, one has the tools to engage in solo practice.
Someone else commented that the practice only focuses on the skin. Actually this is not the case. I had plenty of sensation in my legs and focused on that just fine.
Actually, in later stages of practice. One is instructed to to observe sensations on the inside of the body as well.
There was also a comment by Abhishek regarding focusing on single areas with concentration as opposed to just sitting and observing everything as it is. If I understood it correctly, an end goal of the technique as Goenka taught is to have the mental discipline and skill to observe all the sensations in the body simultaneously. By having this capacity, I can truly be in touch with “what is” at each moment. The technique simply cultivates this capacity to observe “what is”. Without practice, my observation of “what is” tends to be clouded by the illusions that are most noisy at the moment.
Thank you for reporting on your experience. I look forward to your other writing. Cheers.
I have known about Goenka courses since the seventies when I used to live in India, I have done one myself and I personally met during my travels numerous people who have attended his courses during the years. I can understand that different people are suited to different approaches and when can raise criticism about almost anything but for some to say that there is some brainwashing going on or worse is a bit far fetched. Goenka does not encourage a following or for people to remain attached to him after the course. Everyone I know who has done the course has greatly benefited from it. Of course you can say that for some the discipline and intensity can be overwhelming at times but I would not venture as far as to say that it has a sinister purpose. Maybe the course at some venues is less well organized than others and its intensity might not suit evryone. Again to make an issue of the chanting in my view is almost comical. If a ten day intensive course of this kind is too much for some particularly if sometimes the voluntary teachers can seem a bit cold and aloof than go for something milder and more gradual.
My only reservation about Goenka’s vipassana is there should be better after care and follow up but there again there might not be enough volunteers for this task.
[...] Amit D Choudhary from Wisconsin, USA — Jeffrey Brooks from California, USA — Melissa Maples from Turkey — Harmanjit Singh from India — Discussion [...]
Dear Melissa,
I’m a 3 retreat veteran. The last retreat gave me the final mind state that has capped any additional need. Sorry you missed the opportunity of the full 10 day retreat. What you describe is understandable. One day you may see it … see it all. I cannot say words here to break through to you if what you have tried so far has not helped you … which it looks like it has not. If a group people are trying to win a prize and only some gain that prize… some of the others may feel negative toward the whole process… no? Especially if they give up … and don’t give it the full term… if they don’t really try… if they even break the rules before they start… ?
How can you blame anyone but yourself if you are not going to be honest or sincere in your effort. Why did you even want to attend this retreat?
Keep doing the easy meditation practices that leave your monkey mind / ego in charge. Too bad your blithering self absorbed comments will discourage others… oh well. It is a good documentary on how not to do a Vipassana retreat. I agree. Thank you.
@Aryon I think that comment deserves a full-on lol, and I’m pretty conservative with my lol-ing.
If others would let themselves be so easily swayed by a complete stranger’s comments on the web, then I think it stands to reason they wouldn’t have made it through the first day of a retreat anyway. I read lots of negative comments before I went on my retreat, and to be honest it only made me want to go more. Oh, and in my post I do actually encourage people to go on a retreat to try it for themselves. Guess you skimmed over that part.
Glad you know so much about my mind and ego from reading a single blog post, one that you clearly didn’t even read thoroughly. I never knew Goenka retreats made one omniscient! That’s fantastic, good for you – now everyone’s sure to go. Mission accomplished!
Can I just add another lol here? The irony of your comment really did made my day. Seriously, no sarcasm.
Melissa,
Thank you for your write up and post. I love your writing style. I’ve also done NaNoWriMo and would like to read more of your work if you’re willing to share. I’ll check your site to see if I can find more. About the course– I left on Day 0 after the first sit. The course was very confusing when I registered– probably because it’s all volunteer run and they may not know any more than you about what to do. However, I found the course manager at my place very helpful. Although, no one I spoke to would tell me anything about what I should expect from the course, and I only found out more after I left. I had been expecting to learn about meditation and that it would be non-denominational. However, I was put off by a number of things that happened during the first sitting. For one, they offer cushions for you to sit on, but they don’t tell you how to sit. Goenka says in the tape that you can sit how you want and move how you want, but it would be nice if someone told me that beforehand, so there was not any uncertainty. There is a lot of that– keeping you wondering what is next. Even the schedule, while rigorous, is unclear. I had to ask for a watch as I had to check in my phone, which I use as a watch. I was frightened by the chanting in the beginning as I did not expect it at all. I thought I heard one woman crying. It is very disconcerting and unexpected– again, in keeping with the uncertain feeling of the course. Goenka himself is very calm when he starts speaking, but another concern was when he asked that we set aside all religious beliefs for the time we are there. I didn’t feel that I could do that, so I did not take any of the oaths and spoke to the teacher after. I explained that I didn’t think I could do this and why, he recommended that I leave, so I did. I felt conflicted about leaving as I had made a commitment to do this, taking the time off from work and telling close friends and family, but I feel that the experience told me more about myself, including what I really believe. After reading your experience and more about the course I am glad I didn’t stay any longer after deciding it wasn’t for me.
The bus ride home sounds like musical chairs, at least at the retreat you got an assigned place too be and what’s with the 3+6 = 9 empress, indecision, hermit…lol
Anyway the road map of the stages of insight practice may be of benefit. .
Ref….Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book, by Daniel M. Ingram, MD MSPH, Arahat,
I found Daniel’s book very helpful.
Singing can also be very helpful
Crossroads, seem to come and go, yeah.
The gypsy flies from coast to coast
Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin’ fun,
But back home he’ll always run
To sweet Melissa… mmm…
Freight train, each car looks the same, all the same.
And no one knows the Gypsy’s name
No one hears his lonely sighs,
There are no blankets where he lies.
In all his deepest dreams the Gypsy flies
with sweet Melissa… mmm…
Again the morning’s come,
Again he’s on the run,
Sunbeams shining through his hair,
Appearing not to have a care.
Well, pick up your gear and Gypsy roll on, roll on.
Crossroads, will you ever let him go? (Lord, Lord)
Will you hide the dead man’s ghost,
Or will he lie, beneath the clay,
or will his spirit float away?
But I know that he won’t stay without Melissa.
Yes I know that he won’t stay without Melissa.
Allman Brothers..
metta
Hi Melissa,
I am so very sorry to hear about your miserable experience.
While there’s no doubt that you had only yourself to blame for some of your struggles (which you clearly acknowledge in your own writing) there is absolutely no doubt that what you experienced is an abuse of Goenka’s actual intended teachings and process.
I completed a 10-day myself, but had I experienced it in the same way you did I absolutely would have left too.
I’m not a “joiner”, have not attended another retreat in over a decade now, and do not even practice Vipassana any longer. So, I have absolutely no personal agenda in defending Goenka.
At the retreat I attended food was VERY ample, every effort was made by staff to make people comfortable, amenities were very well maintained, schedule was adhered to perfectly (watches were not prohibited), and all of the assistants were helpful and compassionate beyond measure.
I actually agree with the fact that overeating makes things harder, but this is something that most attendees come to on their own after 3-4 days of having as much food as they want available to them for 2 meals a day.
By mid-week I actually found myself TRYING to eat less because I had already learned by then how uncomfortable the sitting was on an over full stomach.
In the beginning it was all too easy to eat for entertainment in the absence of all other recreation and outside stimulation.
Even so, all other centers I’ve heard of uphold the idea that this is something you need to come to on your own, and provide as much food as is desired by attendees.
Having a degree in Hypnotherapy, I can also say that the Goenka recordings are most certainly not using any classic induction techniques, and at least a number of the things you suspected as being “tools” for brainwashing like lying or distorting the timing of sessions are certainly not part of Goenka’s process, since other retreat centers do not employ the same “tactics”.
Were this actually part of Goenka’s agenda (overtly or covertly), it would obviously be consistent at all, or at least most, of his meditation centers around the world.
In the end though, even with completely satisfactory food, accommodations, and basic needs being met, it was still grueling. On day 8, if I could have spoken, I would have declared with complete certitude that I would never EVER be attending another vipassana course again.
Yet, just a few days later, once speaking again, the consciousness changing effect was palpable and obvious, and it lasted acutely for weeks afterwards, and more subtly for months thereafter without any daily maintenance of the practice.
I actually look forward to going again someday.
It’s certainly not for everyone, but it’s just as certainly not a cult as it doesn’t meet any of the typical criteria for that definition… no systemic manipulation of it’s adherents for financial or sexual gain. No promotion of communal living or separation of adherents from family and friends outside of the retreats themselves.
In fact, the specific teaching promotes the exact opposite, a fully engaged and active life in the broader community beyond other vipassana practitioners.
As for elements of “mind-control” in Goenka’s teachings, there is no more of that in Vipassana than in any other teachings of “true believers” regardless of the faith or philosophy, be it Christian, Judaic, Buddhist, Athiest, Anthony Robbins, or the latest weight loss fad.
In the end, I am truly sorry you were subjected to such a distorted expression of Goenka’s actual teaching, but also admire greatly your encouraging others to judge for themselves it’s merits even after that horrible time.
Had I experienced Vipassana in the same place and way you had, I doubt I would have been so generous.
Hi Melissa,
The first time I did a Vipassana course in India I was positive there was a hidden agenda. Hell, I felt like Anakin turning to the Dark Side! Yes to sleep deprivation, malnourishment, the works. I wanted to leave on almost every moment of every day. I stayed. I gave myself the chance to fully experience the Goenka style course.
After talking with friends about my experiences at the Dhamma center, I came to the understanding that allot of my negative experiences are actually caused by the center. Each center operates individually. Still I was skeptical and convinced I would never do a retreat by Goenka again.
Fast forward 6 months. I was in Israel and heard positive things about the dhamma center at the Dead Sea. I decided to give it one more chance (try everything twice). I’m glad I did. It was a completely different experience. The dhamma workers really where there for me, the food was fantastic (all you can eat, and then some). I can go on and on comparing, but your getting the point. It was a great experience. I’m glad I did it. (Still it is hard, sitting 11 hours/10 days isn’t everybody’s cup of tea).
Now, I’m doing a course a year. I do however sneak my iPod in my pocket, there is better chanting to lissen to
It is upsetting to know that there are more dhamma centers out there that do not get the meaning of “Being Happy”. They are ruining an otherwise excellent opportunity for development.
Only love!